An Interview: Dr. Mishlove and Barbara Hubbard

Barbara HUBBARD: Since the universe has been evolving for 15 billion years -- from subatomic particles to molecules to cells to animals to humans to ecologies to planetary systems -- I suddenly saw I was the creation of that whole process. Fifteen billion years it took to create you and me on this planet.

Dr. MISHLOVE: At this now moment.

HUBBARD: Right now. And that whatever motivation I personally feel is an aspect of the whole process, expressing as me, or as you. And I began what I call to surf the spiral. I began to go back and actually experience that's my story; that's not just an abstract, outside story. Because I realized my atoms, my molecules, my limbic brain, my neocortex, where did all that come from? The cosmos.

MISHLOVE: In a sense then, while one might say you're 64 years old, you could say equally truthfully that you're 15 billion years old.

HUBBARD: That's right. And I suddenly saw that all this question about our roots and our ethnic differences -- you know, we're all from the cosmos. We all have a 15-billion-year history, and I personally believe that as we head to the planetary birth, that each person will see themselves as a unique aspect of the whole, and that whatever their cultural roots are will be considered a gift to the future, but that the real roots of all of us go back, not only to just the big bang, because that was the physical manifestation, but in my understanding now, we go back to the universal intelligence.

MISHLOVE: The universal intelligence -- I think that's an important concept, because if we're to look at solving the enormous problems that we have, breaking free of well-entrenched, deep habit patterns of oppression, of waste, of warfare and violence across the culture, it's going to require some kind of quantum transformation of consciousness, and it needs to happen in our lifetime.

HUBBARD: That is the amazing thing. Here are my basic reasons for hope -- and a lot of people don't see this, but I don't see how they can miss it, actually -- but if you look at the 15-billion-year history, it is a continuous rise of consciousness and freedom -- I mean from molecule to cell to animal to human to us. There is no earthly reason why it would stop here, with a group of furry bipeds. We're only 50,000 years old as Homo sapiens sapiens. Do you realize whales are millions of years old? So we are very young as a species, and we look it, and we act it, and we're a mess. We still have little tips on our ears like wolves and little fangs here and a little hair here. We are actually just coming out of the mammalian stage. But if you add to our animal heritage, and even our spiritual heritage, our noosphere, our technological social system, you actually begin to see the possibility of the birth of a universal humanity. That's my particular word for it.

MISHLOVE: You sometimes call it Homo universalis.

HUBBARD: Right, and that we come from Homo sapiens through a birth process where we are shifting from self-centered consciousness to whole-centered, cosmic-, Buddha-, Christ-, God-centered consciousness.

MISHLOVE: In other words, to a large extent we still behave like monkeys.

HUBBARD: We do.

MISHLOVE: But there are role models, there are templates, if we look at the great saints and spiritual leaders of humanity.

HUBBARD: Well, I believe that every great religion -- which actually came through great individuals, although we may have lost track of that -- each great religion was an experience of a mystic, who experienced a higher state of being, and who created a teaching and disciples, who then created a religion, which got calcified and dogmatized often. But basically each culture is patterned with an experience of a higher state of being, and everybody's heard it one way or the other. For example, in Egypt with those pyramids, they were really the beginning of the idea of the human becoming a regenerating god. In India, through the great yogis, they transcended self-consciousness through yoga, through union with the all. In Greece we penetrated the visible world into the world of the invisible atom; in Israel, Abraham and God, the Covenant between humans and God for the transformation of the physical world -- the New Jerusalem, the new Heaven, the new Earth. Could it be that all those religions are ancient futurists?

MISHLOVE: Ancient futurists.

HUBBARD: Yes. And then when Buddha came in, there was a great individual that we actually have the story of, the history of, that represented human enlightenment. And then I believe that when Jesus came in, he came in to represent to us a map of the total physical and psychological transformation of the human to a co-creator with God.

MISHLOVE: In other words, Jesus came not so much to be worshipped by us as something far above us and unobtainable, but as someone pointing the way and saying, "Come be like me."

HUBBARD: His basic reason for being is to demonstrate what we can do. And when he said, "You will do the work that I do, and greater works than these will you do in the fullness of time," my experience is that that's true. Even if we could look at our situation right now, we are doing the work that he did, and greater works, but often without the consciousness. Whether it be in our healing, in our technologies, we can do Christ work, even now. But we're not yet in Christ consciousness as a collective. And by Christ consciousness I'm not talking about a religion. I'm talking about a consciousness that the source and the person are one: "The Father and I are one, and of myself I do nothing." That's what Jesus said. When any one of us realizes we are one with source, with spirit, with God, and that it is that flowing through us, then we too have those powers. That's my belief.